So welcome to the fourth event in our yearlong series on psychedelics and the future of religion, co-sponsored by the Esalen Institute, the Riverstyx Foundation, and the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? Like in Israel. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. OK. Now let's pan back because, we have-- I want to wrap up my interrogation of you, which I've been pressing you, but I feel as if perhaps people joining me think I'm hostile to this hypothesis. This is true. And much of the evidence that you've collected is kind of the northern half of the Mediterranean world. That event is already up on our website and open for registration. So what have you learned about the Eleusinian mysteries in particular since Ruck took this up, and what has convinced you that Ruck's hypothesis holds water? This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . So throughout the book, you make the point that ancient beer and wine are not like our beer and wine. These sources suggest a much greater degree of continuity with pre-Christian values and practice than the writings of more . And that's what I get into in detail in the book. To become truly immortal, Campbell talks about entering into a sense of eternity, which is the infinite present here and now. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? It's really quite simple, Charlie. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. And shouldn't we all be asking that question? But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? And I think that that's the real question here. And I've listened to the volunteers who've gone through these experiences. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. And in his book [? Maybe for those facing the end of life. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. That's only after Constantine. I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. You can see that inscribed on a plaque in Saint Paul's monastery at Mount Athos in Greece. And I think sites like this have tended to be neglected in scholarship, or published in languages like Catalan, maybe Ukrainian, where it just doesn't filter through the academic community. Here's the big question. The long and short of it is, in 1978 there was no hard scientific data to prove this one way or the other. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. Now we're getting somewhere. All right, so now, let's follow up with Dionysus, but let's see here. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. Like savory, wormwood, blue tansy, balm, senna, coriander, germander, mint, sage, and thyme. I am excited . Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. It was a pilgrimage site. I mean, if Burkert was happy to speculate about psychedelics, I'm not sure why Ruck got the reception that he did in 1978 with their book The Road to Eleusis. But I want to ask you to reflect on the broader narrative that you're painting, because I've heard you speak in two ways about the significance of this work. And nor did we think that a sanctuary would be one of the first things that we construct. CHARLES STANG: Right. Not because it was brand new data. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. Because my biggest question is, and the obvious question of the book is, if this was happening in antiquity, what does that mean for today? Again, how did Christianity take hold in a world with such a rich mystical tradition? I see a huge need and a demand for young religious clergy to begin taking a look at this stuff. So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. That's, just absurd. We have an hour and a half together and I hope there will be time for Q&A and discussion. In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. 44:48 Psychedelics and ancient cave art . BRIAN MURARESKU: I look forward to it, Charlie. No, I think you-- this is why we're friends, Charlie. And then was, in some sense, the norm, the original Eucharist, and that it was then suppressed by orthodox, institutional Christianity, who persecuted, especially the women who were the caretakers of this tradition. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. All rights reserved. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. And inside that beer was all kinds of vegetable matter, like wheat, oats, and sedge and lily and flax and various legumes. So I see-- you're moving back and forth between these two. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. So when Hippolytus is calling out the Marcosians, and specifically women, consecrating this alternative Eucharist in their alternative proto-mass, he uses the Greek word-- and we've talked about this before-- but he uses the Greek word [SPEAKING GREEK] seven times in a row, by the way, without specifying which drugs he's referring to. And I feel like I accomplished that in the afterword to my book. In the afterword, you champion the fact that we stand on the cusp of a new era of psychedelics precisely because they can be synthesized and administered safely in pill form, back to The Economist article "The God Pill". If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. But you go further still, suggesting that Jesus himself at the Last Supper might have administered psychedelic sacrament, that the original Eucharist was psychedelic. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. And he was actually going out and testing some of these ancient chalices. And what we know about the wine of the time is that it was prized amongst other things not for its alcoholic content, but for its ability to induce madness. That was the question for me. First, I will provide definitions for the terms "pagan", "Christian", Now you're a good sport, Brian. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. And you're right. And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. And please just call me Charlie. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. Maybe I have that wrong. But by and large, no, we don't really know. And so in my afterword, I present this as a blip on the archaeochemical radar. But you will be consoled to know that someone else will be-- I will be there, but someone else will be leading that conversation. A rebirth into what? That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More (#646) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss 3 Annual "Best of" Apple Podcasts 900+ Million episodes downloaded And apparently, the book is on order, so I can't speak to this directly, but the ancient Greek text that preserves this liturgy also preserves the formula, the ingredients of the eye ointment. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. CHARLES STANG: So in some sense, you're feeling almost envy for the experiences on psychedelics, which is to say you've never experienced the indwelling of Christ or the immediate knowledge of your immortality in the sacrament. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. CHARLES STANG: OK. Now let's move into the Greek mystery. With more than 35 years of experience in the field of Education dedicated to help students, teachers and administrators in both public and private institutions at school, undergraduate and graduate level. So whatever was happening there was important. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. An actual spiked wine. And what the FDA can do is make sure that they're doing it in a way that it's absolutely safe and efficacious. I'm happy to be proven wrong. One, on mainland Greece from the Mycenaean period, 16th century BC, and the other about 800 years later in modern day Turkey, another ritual potion that seemed to have suggested some kind of concoction of beer, wine, and mead that was used to usher the king into the afterlife. What I see is data that's been largely neglected, and I think what serves this as a discipline is just that. Because they talk about everything else that they take issue with. First act is your evidence for psychedelics among the so-called pagan religions in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East. Copyright 2023 President and Fellows of Harvard College. And you suspect, therefore, that it might be a placebo, and you want the real thing. So this is the tradition, I can say with a straight face, that saved my life. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. And I started reading the studies from Pat McGovern at the University of Pennsylvania. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? And so I cite a Pew poll, for example, that says something like 69% of American Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation, which is the defining dogma of the church, the idea that the bread and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood. 8 "The winds, the sea . So let's start, then, the first act. BRIAN MURARESKU: I'm asked this question, I would say, in pretty much every interview I've done since late September. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. It's not just Cana. The Gnostics did have continuity with paganism. It seems to me, though, that the intensity and the potency of the psychedelic experience is of an order of magnitude different than what I may have experienced through the Eucharist. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion 3 days ago Plants of the Gods: S4E1. And Ruck, and you following Ruck, make much of this, suggesting maybe the Gnostics are pharmacologists of some kind. Which, if you think about it, is a very elegant idea. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. Who were the Saints? And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. . The most influential religious historian of the twentieth century, Huston Smith, once referred to it as the "best-kept secret" in history. I will ask Brian to describe how he came to write this remarkable book, and the years of sleuthing and studying that went into it. So I went fully down the rabbit hole. Like the wedding at Cana, which my synopsis of that event is a drunkard getting a bunch of drunk people even more drunk. BRIAN MURARESKU:: It's a simple formula, Charlie. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. So here's a question for you. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. The continuity theory of normal aging states that older adults will usually maintain the same activities, behaviors, relationships as they did in their earlier years of life. That is my dog Xena. I don't think we have found it. And why, if you're right that the church has succeeded in suppressing a psychedelic sacrament and has been peddling instead, what you call a placebo, and that it has exercised a monstrous campaign of persecution against plant medicine and the women who have kept its knowledge alive, why are you still attached to this tradition? And, as always the best way to keep abreast of this series and everything else we do here at the Center is to join our mailing list. Many people see that as symbolic or allegorical or just a nice thing, which is not the case. So why do you think psychedelics are so significant that they might usher in a new Reformation? It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. I want to thank you for putting up with me and my questions. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. I think psychedelics are just one piece of the puzzle. I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . Please materialize. Even a little bit before Gobekli Tepe, there was another site unearthed relatively recently in Israel, at the Rakefet cave. And so with a revised ancient history, in place Brian tacks back to the title of our series, Psychedelics and the Future of Religion. 48:01 Brian's psychedelic experiences . By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. If you are drawn to psychedelics, in my mind, it means you're probably drawn to contemplative mysticism. [1] According to this theory, older adults try to maintain this continuity of lifestyle by adapting strategies that are connected to their past experiences. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. Material evidence of a very strange potion, a drug, or a [SPEAKING GREEK]. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact." So, although, I mean, and that actually, I'd like to come back to that, the notion of the, that not just the pagan continuity hypothesis, but the mystery continuity hypothesis through the Vatican. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. So I don't write this to antagonize them or the church, the people who, again, ushered me into this discipline and into these questions. I think the only big question is what the exact relationship was from a place like that over to Eleusis. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. The universality of frontiers, however, made the hypothesis readily extendable to other parts of the globe. I'm trying to get him to speak in the series about that. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. And I think oversight also comes in handy within organized religion. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history.