But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. I am old school. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. So its purpose is based on design. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Really late to the discussion. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. Ive shot both calibers at humans as a soldier and as a LEO and 9mm just doesnt get the same results as 45 in the same number of shots. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? too powerful??? Really lets cut to the chase. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. They also have a budget. Sound familiar?? This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. If you havent got JHP or ballistic tip bullets in the 9mm gun your in trouble. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. This doesnt factor shot placement. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. Your skull is very thick in places (base of the skull) and some bullets arent designed for that kind of penetration. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. 45 stopping power! The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. You get Into a real shooting scenario. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. Not aim shoot. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. That changed for me Dec of 2017. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. F=MA is F=MA. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? What that means is that handgun bullets, as opposed to the devastating wound channels rifle projectiles can cause, are only just poking little holes in people. I daily now carry a 9 mm. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. A 9 is a great backup. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. Just bless his little Prsident heart. Interesting. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Everyone should buy a magnum-powered handgun in .357 or larger caliber and feel completely secure that he or she has the best stopping power. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. That and other factors. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. 9mm capacity! Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. The Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. But Im my opinion, they are tools! Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. But thats a subject for another article. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Oh yeahMale mental dropped like a 50 pound bag of sand. I also reload/handload have shot competitively and have hunted all my life. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. Project: Aftermath Wiki. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. Theres been many people shot and continue. He was 15.. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. My department switched to +p for 45s. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. I have handgun hunted for over 25 yrs and enjoy it immensly, and also do a lot of reloading.IF a guy wants to carry a 45 or 9 or anything else and are comfortable and proficient with either, then why not? AT 500 fps a 230 grains projectile would only have 127 foot pounds of energy leaving the muzzle. The new .50Ae desert eagle has as much recoil as the 1911/M45 which is unrealistc (the .45 has alot less recoil). We had a good chuckle out of that one. There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. 2. Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. A century? It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. I love it. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. I carry a number of different calibers depending on what Im wearing that day and where I intend to go; but I no longer even own a 9mm. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Ammunition can really change performance. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. This article will define what the question which handgun round has the best stopping power? means, and offer unbiased information that will help the readers to make up their own minds on the subject. and departments. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Wouldnt waste my money on it. Now that you know where I am coming from. And It will get the job done quite handily. They are a secondary source at best. Sadly, most government decisions like this are primarily based on cost effectiveness, not cartridge performance or effectiveness; thats the main reason I quit using military or LE decisions as a factor in my own carry decisions. That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. Practice is key. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. I do think a close range the 45 ACP will knock someone down where ever you hit them. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. Officer needs help!! Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Gimme a break! ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. Id use either! But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. I like my Colt GOV. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . Open carry is fine where Im at. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Police usually shoot from a distance. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. I also have one that many people will call garbage. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. Keep in mind, competing for government contracts is expensive, time-consuming, and maintaining an awarded contract can be a royal pain in the you-know-what! If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. So dont ask. I know the argument for +P with lighter bullets, but I settled on these because they meet my two most important criteria for defensive ammo penetration and accuracy. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com View our Terms of Service The FBI just did the same thing. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. Oh boy, that could start a whole new area of discussion 1911 vs 1926, most common bullet weights, etc. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement.
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